Paras who read the news article on the marines "wings pinning" ceremony were asked their opinion of the practice. Following is a sample of feedback received from other paras.

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I am an Army Master-Blaster para w/ 7 years jumping experience, 2 foreign countries, served Honduras, Korea, Persian Gulf, Egypt, Somalia, Haiti, and Germany - and a Chaplain, now serving in the USAR. Yes, I've had blood wings, and proud of them. The film clips I saw showed an undisciplined and drunk unit that was out to inflict damage upon each other. IF it was me, I would definitely remember. That's not Hoah, that's stupidity. Save the blood letting for the bad guys. Airborne All The Way.

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I have read with some astonishment the idiotic comments approving of the tradition of blood wings. I am also bit bewildered at hearing this referred to as a tradition! I received my wings at Fort Benning in 1953. There was no such tradition at that time. If anyone had tried to punch me in the chest he would have had to kick my ass first.

email: kelleher@envirosafe.com

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Sir,

I worked with the marines on a several occasions including in Beirut, where our SF Team & many other intelligence assets frequently warned them of what was being planned.

They had the "Let those Rag Heads Try Something & We Will Kick There Ass!" attitude from Flag Rank down to Private. I also worked to there front in Desert Storm and have personally witnessed their "Attitude" on many occasions.

Show me a Military organization where there is blatant disregard for following regulations and I will show you a unit that can not be trusted, in peace or war.

In short, I do regret the generalization, but strongly feel that they are nothing more exceptional than Regular Naval Infantry with less than average personnel and officers. Based on my personnel observations & experience the "Blood Wings" incident is truly typical of these less than average "Soldiers".

P.S. I was never pinned with "Blood Wings" when I received my Basic, Senior, Master, HALO & Combat Jump wings. I was on "Jump Status" for 13 years uninterrupted and it made me no less of a man and certainly no less of a Paratrooper. I am also a former Black Hat & was the NCOIC for several Airborne & Jumpmaster courses. (I was medically retired soon after Desert Storm, after 15 Years of service).

Again thank you for your good sense, and a great Web Page.

Regards,

M. Virgil Stenhammar

All The Way!

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MARINES: I THINK THE TRADITION SHOULD CONTINUE ! THE MARINES IN THE VIDEO TOOK THINGS TO FAR PLAIN AND SIMPLE. THE NCOS AND OFFICERS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY MILITARY JUSTICE, OR (SHHH) THE ABUSED SOLDIERS THEMSELVES. I THINK IN COMBAT THOSE NCOS AND OFFICERS WOULDNT MAKE IT, THE VIDEO SHOWS EXACTLY WHAT KIND OF LEADERS THEY ARE, I WOULD NOT HAVE RESPECT FOR LEADERS WHO TREATED ME IN THAT FASHION!

email: PUNISH96@aol.com

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MARINES: Sorry, I'm a para with the 82d and I really think these guys went too far. This video ranks right up with the one shown about two years ago with the Marine Drill Team in Washington where they showed guys dumping urine, feces, and vomit all over newly assigned personnel and then sticking a dobber of Honor Guard Edge Dressing up their fourth point of contact.

After serving with the 10th Mtn Div for five years and watching many, many guys become frostbite casualties, I realized that there is a thin line between "hoooah" and "stupid." The ceremony of blood wings is as stated many times in this forum a good thing. It is true that we are not like everybody else. But there is a point when abuse and humiliation become the primary focus of those dishing it out. That was no congratulations party that was an excuse to beat the living hell out of a subordinate. It was uncalled for and all those involved in the administration of that abuse should be thrown out.

What bothers me is because of this we're all being scrutinized and similiar, although not as brutal, ceremonies are not allowed. Ask anyone who's had "blood wings" in the traditional sense and they'll tell you they'd do it all over again tommorrow.

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As a former LRRP and Ranger from the Viet Nam era, I am very familiar with bloody ceremonies of medals, etc. The was a simple pounding in of the wings/medals/rank, followed by much verbal harrassment and normal fun enjoyed by most elite groups. I would simply point out that if someone were to treat myself or one of my fellow Rangers in the manner these marines were treated (gouging, grinding, etc), I would have killed each and every one of them with delicious glee. There was no respect in that room, only stupid small children grinding down good men.

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BLOODWINGS: Yes, I saw the news clip and I think that the marines went a little too far. Some of the Soldiers were obviously in pain and the act was carried out over and over again. No one with any authority stood up to say "thats enough!" I don't believe that these young men should have had to endure this torture. What was there to prove? I received my blood wings over 20 years ago but that was at graduation and there were no drunks beating on my chest. Too many times in the military, leaders sat back and a lot of negative things happen that they could have stopped. Looking the other way for so long and then one day wondering why their morale in their platoon is so low or why their re-enlistments are down. As leaders, we have a morale responsibility to our soldiers. Let the marine's experience be a time to reflect on what is important to enchance commraderie and esprit de corp. AIRBORNE ALL THE WAY!

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MARINES: Bloodwings: Jarheads will be jarheads. This group of idiots showed their level of intelligence by videotaping themselves. Being a Paratrooper whose father is a Paratrooper and whose brother is soon to be a Paratrooper I condone the ritual of "Pinning on Jump Wings" When I graduated from Jump School I did not let my "Blackhat" tag me. I waited for my Blood to do it! When my brother graduates I'll be there to tag him, but not on video! Screw the damn civilians if they can't understand! ABN!!!-ALL THE WAY!!!

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As a former intelligence officer (Airborne, of course) attached to the 3d Brigade, 82d Abn Div, I was initiated with 'Prop Blast' and blood wings and was damn glad to be a part of the tradition; However, here is some food for thought told to our planning staff by the 3d Bde commander, COL Clyde Newman, a CIB-decorated, "Master Blaster" who's got a load of scare badges of his own: COL Newman said that he would not have "blood wingings" in his brigade for the simple fact that a soldier who was blood-winged caught a blood infection and is now a quadriplegic as a result.

COL Newman is not a bullshitter, so let's just wait until we're in combat to show the enemy how elite we are; our stupidity in peacetime accomplishes nothing, except wastes assets best saved for the battlefield. ------------------------------------------------------------------------

HI HERB,

IN A WAR THERE IS ENOUGH BLOOD AND PAIN FOR EVERYONE. IN PEACE SOME TRY TO EMULATE THIS BLOOD AND PAIN. BETTER TO WAIT FOR THE NEXT WAR.

AOK TO PUT MY NAME AND URL ON MY NOTE. I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE.

Thanks, Roy

URL: http://www.dropzonepress.com

JUMP CITY code: 0219

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THIS ACTIVITY IS OBVIOUSLY A SUITABLE OUTLET FOR CHILDREN AND YOUNG ADULTS. THIS NASTY BUSINESS SOME OF US ARE IN REQUIRES CONSIDERABLE MATURITY AND OBJECTIVITY IN ORDER TO PREVAIL. BLACK MIKE, FMR SAS

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The issue, however, isn't necessarily the perforation of marines' chests with small metal objects, it's the obviously grotesque abuse of subordinates. The marines depicted on the tape no doubt underwent the "pinning ceremony" to gain the acceptance of their co-workers (and NCO's ?), and "become full-fledged members of their team." Some sort of tacit acceptance of newcomers by the "old hands" is always necessary. This allows the unit members to feel they have some say in the control of their collective "standard" in conduct, fitness, appearance, proficiency, etc., of the unit. It's a way for current unit members to tell newcomers that, "...not everyone can make it here. We're special..."

Abuse of newcomers does none of these things. Abuse does not foster trust. Abuse teaches newcomers to fear their comrades, and to fear their leadership. Abuse does not teach one to be proficient at one's assigned tasks, whether that be infantry assaults, medical treatment, or the calibration of sensitive electronics.

Can anyone seriously explain the "training value" gained by maliciously pounding para-wings into young marines' chests? Was it to teach them to be able to "take" pain and so forth? Teach young marines to endure pain during long, gruelling hikes under heavy load? --YES. Teach them to endure pain in the Hand-to-Hand Pit? --YES. Teach misery through cold, wet, sleepless nights in fighting positions without heat? --Absolutely. But teach them anything through beatings? --NO!

The led must learn to fight, survive, and emerge victorious through tough, realistic training and exposure to realistic scenarios. Train as you fight. But, never, never abuse the trust of the led. Abuse for the sake of abuse leads to nothing of value. Leaders must teach proper values through their fine example. They must ensure that abusive situations of this type do not occur, while ensuring that the high spirit and effectiveness of their unit survives and grows. The young volunteers of all our military branches must be treated with dignity. They deserve respect.

RAYMOND ARSENAULT SERGEANT FIRST CLASS, U.S. ARMY

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Simple answer. It's a tradition that has taken a turn for the worst. I received blood wings when I was awarded my master wings, but that was just a punch to the chest. I'm still sporting scars, but it wasn't that bad. What I saw on TV was bullshit harassment and sadism. Wanna pound their wings? I couldn't give a shit. Wanna pick a man up by the pecs with your teeth? You and me are gonna fight. The Lieutenant that was in the video should lose his commission immediately.

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When I made my 5th jump in jump school (Ft Benning) I was pleased to learn that my father had made the trip to my graduation. He came to me in formation and gave me "blood wings". I did not know he was going to do it but I was glad he did. The USMC film clip was a little overboard and as a result of them over doing it we are now talking and wrighting about it. Bottom line: A good thing taken too far to the extreme.

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Dear Herb,

Thanks for the request. Hard to say how I feel about the pinning ceremony. At first, I was amused by the media interpreting what they didn't understand as I fondly recalled getting my own blood wings. I got a couple of holes in me, and of course my chest was black and blue for a week or so. Then, I saw the video.
The marines, fellow paratroopers and brothers in the profession of arms, were *way* out of line. I saw abuse there I haven't seen in 5 years of service in regular Army airborne units. There is a difference between a manly test of mettle and abuse. This point of view begs the question, why don't the participants complain? Peer pressure, of course. That great ally of leaders at times can be misused to intimidate subordinates. By the way, I saw *one* officer (a lieutenant, I believe) in the video. This suggests that this was possibly a no higher than platoon function, not "mandatory fun" sponsored by a higher-level unit.
I realize my point of view may not be popular, but I really don't care. My conscience is my guide, and I would not have tolerated that behavior in my detachment.

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I was in Force Recon from Jan 1960 until Jul 1963. What I saw on TV made me Ill. I beleive that all should be "drumed" out of the Corps. Those who received as well as those who administered the "pinning on of the marine corps jump wings" ----------------------------------------------------------------------

When I graduated jump school in June of 1984, they wouldn't give us "bloodwings". So my buddy beside me gave them to me, and I gave them to him. Just a good firm blow to the wings, nothing spectacular. It left no bruises or permanent scarring.

It is tradition. It is a mark of pride in the accomplishment of obtaining your wings. That was not what was shown in the marine video. This practice should not be abolished, but should be carried out without intimidation or injury.

David M. Gann PA-C

C Co. 3/75 Ranger '84-87

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Herb, As a Canadian Jumper and a former member of the Canadian Airborne Regiment" I understand the idea behind initiations and the rites of passage. I always thought the idea of having ones Wings pushed into ones chest as the so call "Cherry on top of the sundae" (we don't have that tradition as our dress wings are made of cloth). However, I feel that when a tradition turns into a seemingly sadistic game you've crossed the line. I don't think that these Para Instr's should be punished for this act but maybe they should be re-introduced to why they are PI's in the first place.

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The plain truth is the marines crossed the line, and plain *@#|+% up a good tradition. Fact is we earned our wings without the "blood" ceremony, but then we ran the grinder wearing jogging shoes instead of combat boots. What can I say? Anyhow, the males in our group repaired to our favorite off-base watering hole ASAP to conduct our own ceremony. In the best of tradition, we each received a single blood-wing award. It was not a sadistic blow and not a mindless pounding with closed fist. The blood-wing was awarded to the chest with the open palm of the hand as one would give a buddy a firm pat on the shoulder for a job well done.

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Sir,

I'm a veteran of the US Army (7years active) and currently on an ROTC scholarship to become an officer. Having spent 5.5 years of my total service in an Airborne Infantry BN and achieving Master Parachutist status, I feel I can safely comment on your topic.

These traditions have been going on since before WWII, and like traditions of some sort have been taking place among forces since the dawn of time. Big freaking deal!! For the USMC Commanders to say they were ignorant of it leads me to believe one of two things: (1) They're out of touch with their men and Military Airborne Tradition, or (2) They're flat-out lying.

I've been the awardee of Blood-wings & Blood-rank, as well as the awarder! I'd do it again in a heartbeat because it instills a sense of "Esprit de Corps" within the ranks.....something that leads to team cohesivenes and keeping your men alive in combat.

Honestly though, I don't know if I'm more upset at the Press for exploiting something so harmless or the Military Hierarchy for letting these attacks be effective. Today's military has become laced with corporate-ese and CEOs when we need to be focused on Thinking WAR. Not because we're hawks or imperialistic, but because this is necessary to support and defend the very constitution that gives the press its power.

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I'm an active duty Army officer who's spent about five years on jump status. What I saw in the video tape seemed excessive, however the tradition is still carried on in the Army, particularly when the trooper receives an advanced rating (senior - master). I believe its a valid expression of esprit, as long as its done in moderation. The video seemed to cross the line.

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